29 June 2006

Surely today's a good day, no?

Finally a positive story about the US that's on top of the BBC site: the Supreme Court has ruled that the Bush administration's plans for military tribunals at Guantánamo are illegal.

Here's what I'd call the money quote, from section VII of the Opinion of the Court (written by Justice Stevens):
We have assumed, as we must, that the allegations made in the Government’s charge against Hamdan are true. We have assumed, moreover, the truth of the message implicit in that charge—viz., that Hamdan is a dangerous individual whose beliefs, if acted upon, would cause great harm and even death to innocent civilians, and who would act upon those beliefs if given the opportunity. It bears emphasizing that Hamdan does not challenge, and we do not today address, the Government’s power to detain him for the duration of active hostilities in order to prevent such harm. But in undertaking to try Hamdan and subject him to criminal punishment, the Executive is bound to comply with the Rule of Law that prevails in this jurisdiction.

Bravo.

Full text of Hamdan v. Rumsfeld available here.

6 Comments:

At 29 June, 2006 16:38, Blogger Unknown said...

The BBC also quotes Hamdan's lawyer Neal Katyal as saying the following:
"I would caution those who say that this is kind of 'President Bush lost today.' President Bush didn't lose today; America and our founders won today, by adhering to our most fundamental values as a people."

Huzzah.

 
At 04 July, 2006 19:45, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The ruling is a good one as far as it goes. You can almost hear the regret in Stevens' opinion that he cannot address the larger issue of indefinite detainment.

Some have pointed out, though, that this simply opens the door for Congress to step in and authorize Bush to ignore the Geneva Conventions. He wants to do it and the Republicans in Congress would love to let him: more Red Meat for the base, in line with their current strategy.

Gay marriage, flag burning, Iraq resolution, now Geneva Conventions--look for it. Rove is definitely back in business.

 
At 11 July, 2006 08:32, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't know if anyone still cares about this thread, but here's some stunningly good news fresh off the wire on July 11. Not only did the Court uphold the Geneva Conventions for Gitmo detainees, but the administration actually plans to abide by the ruling, rather than ranting and raving about "activist judges."

Frankly, I'm speechless. Maybe keeping Rove out of the policy wing is paying off.

 
At 11 July, 2006 08:47, Blogger Unknown said...

That is great news.
I heard it on the radio upon waking today, but assumed it was a dream or some sort of sarcasm. . . .

Amusing, in that msnbc piece, how Snow insisted that this was "not really a reversal of policy."
Did I miss something? Wasn't the case Hamdan v. Rumsfeld? Wasn't the administration arguing that the Geneva Conventions . . . oh never mind.

A sad state we're in, when I rejoice to hear that the president of the United States has merely agreed to uphold a law. . . .

 
At 13 July, 2006 07:35, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Vladimir Putin tried out some material on the Today Show yesterday, in response to criticism from Cheney:

"These kinds of comments from your vice president amount to the same thing as an unsuccessful hunting shot."

(Rim shot)

I imagine it was all in the delivery.

Nonetheless, since we're praising the administration in this thread (sort of) I should acknowledge that in this case Cheney is more or less on the right side of this issue.

 
At 13 July, 2006 08:05, Blogger Unknown said...

Putin; who knew?

As for praising the administration, I may have been a bit too quick. In fact, I probably should have expected this headline from today's Times:
White House Prods Congress to Curb Detainee Rights.

I suppose it's a sort of victory that such things now require prodding . . .

 

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23 June 2006

Finding Their Voice

It looks as though movers and shakers in the Democratic party have been taking heed of Truth Will Out's suggestions. As we were debating the various Iraq positions of potential '08 candidates, they were hashing it out on the senate floor. And as we were discussing what direction or issues to push, one likely candidate outside of the Senate started pushing big ideas:

John Edwards is pushing one issue that might satisfy both Peter Beinart & Michael Tomasky (and yancy & me). Poverty is on his mind and his pitch may make him a favorite of the labor movement. Watch Edwards talk about his plan here.

From the National Journal:

"Like JFK challenging America to land a man on the moon, a national goal of eradicating poverty will sharpen our focus, marshal our resources and at the end of the day, bring out our best."

“Besides, we need a goal. America will never get close to eliminating poverty until we set our sights and commit to try."



And not only does he have a big idea, he's letting it all hang out on Iraq:

Gordon Fischer, former chairman of the Iowa Democratic Party, who isn't aligned with any presidential campaign, says Edwards has ``great support'' in Iowa. ``He has phoned folks here and e-mailed folks here and done guest editorials in the Des Moines Register,'' Fischer said. ``He is working it. That pays off.''

Fischer said the Iraq war is very important to the Democratic activists who dominate the Iowa caucuses, and ``Edwards' apology made a big difference to Democrats here.''

Fischer was referring to a Nov. 13, 2005, opinion piece Edwards wrote for the Washington Post that began, ``I was wrong.'' He went on to say that his 2002 Senate vote authorizing President George W. Bush to use force in Iraq was a mistake, and ``I take responsibility for that mistake.''

Yesterday, Edwards called for the immediate withdrawal of 40,000 U.S. troops from Iraq. ``We need to be getting out,'' Edwards said in the interview. He said all combat troops should be withdrawn ``within 12 to 18 months.'' - Bloomberg news.

Senate Dems Speak Out

Last week the Democrats were trapped in a phony House debate on Iraq. This week, Senate Democrats took advantage of the unpopular war by uniting under the broad policy of what I'll call "Something's got to give." There were many more votes for Carl Levin's resolution which set no dates for a withdrawal/re-deployment than there were for John Kerry's amendment which stated the troops should be home within a year.

There were compelling cases made on both sides, and much of the media is playing up the divisions in the party. But I think this week has been good for Democrats. Cards are being laid on the table, positions are being tested, and the floor debates have put strong criticism of the war in the spotlight:

"The Republicans in the Senate stand alone in insisting on 'no plan and no end,' " Harry Reid said."

"“Democrats have a plan to begin to leave Iraq, but leave with our interests intact – it is not simply a phased withdrawal. The Administration has no plan. All they are offering is more of the same. Democrats have an end game, Republicans still have an open-ended commitment.

“There may be differences among Democrats, but that’s a much better place to be than where Republicans are: united behind the President in a failed policy.”
- Joe Biden

"I share many of the goals set forth in the Kerry Amendment. We should send a clear message to the Iraqis that we won't be there forever, and that by next year our primary role should be to conduct counter-insurgency actions, train Iraqi security forces, and provide needed logistical support. . . No amount of spin or photo opportunities can change the bottom line: this war has been poorly conceived and poorly managed by the White House, and that is why it has been so poorly received by the American people. And it's troubling to already see Karl Rove in New Hampshire, treating this as a political attack opportunity instead of a major national challenge around which to rally the country." - Barack Obama

"For three years, Congress has played political games while the war in Iraq has gone on unchecked and unending. With the administration’s failure to offer a coherent or effective strategy in Iraq, it is long past time for Congress to offer a plan to redeploy our troops so we can give Iraq its best chance at stability, and refocus on al Qaeda and the terrorist networks that threaten the security of all Americans.

We must redeploy to succeed – and we will put this national security imperative to a test in the United States Senate this week. . . Our amendment recognizes the need to keep an over-the-horizon military presence in the Middle East to fight al Qaeda and its affiliates and protect regional security interests. Only troops essential to finishing the job of training Iraqi forces, conducting targeted counter-terrorist operations and protecting U.S. facilities and personnel should remain inside Iraq."
- John Kerry

Redeploy to succeed. Sounds like a good policy to me.

I think this debate puts Democrats on the side of most voters. Most of us don't know whether we should quickly withdraw, re-deploy, or otherwise alter our policy. But most want the policy to change. I don't think Democrats will be punished at the ballot box for not having a clear bumper-sticker solution. But elected Dems have to get their hands dirty and get in the debate and carve out some space on this.

The '06 election can be about change in Iraq. We can unite on more details under a specific candidate in '08. I know most of the media isn't pushing this angle, but this is the right debate for the moment and I think will ultimately do the party good.

Paul Begala agrees:

"If anyone tells you the solution to Iraq is easy or obvious, they’re a liar or a fool (a false choice in the case of our president). So why not feature the debate? At least someone is debating what to do.

The fact is the American people want a new direction in Iraq, and the Democrats offer several. The Republicans, on the other hand, offer nothing more than a four-word strategy: more of the same.

Every time the GOP says “cut and run,” Democrats should say, “rubber stamp.”"


On the heels of white house press secretary Tony Snow's unfortunate WWII comparisons, let me trot out a few FDR quotes that seem apt in the Iraq debate:

"There are many ways of going forward, but only one way of standing still."

"One thing is sure. We have to do something. We have to do the best we know how at the moment... If it doesn't turn out right, we can modify it as we go along."


I've been skeptical of Hillary Clinton as an '08 nominee, but I'll give her the last word on this as she best sums up my feelings on the Democrats this week:

"I want to start by saying that although unity is important, it is not the most important value. It is, I think, a tribute to the Democratic party at this moment in time that we are honestly and openly struggling with a lot of the difficult issues facing our country. We just finished a debate about the way forward in Iraq. It turned out not to be a debate between the parties because the other party has made a decision to blindly follow the president, to ask no questions, to raise no concerns. My friend Jane Harman here in the front row, who has been a leader in our party on national security issues, has been raising hard questions while her counterpart is basically just in the amen corner for the Bush administration.

So I think that the Democrats may have somewhat different views about how we succeed in Iraq, but we are together unified in fulfilling our constitutional responsibility to engage in a legitimate debate, to ask the difficult issues and to offer honorable, responsible positions."
- Hillary Clinton

12 Comments:

At 26 June, 2006 09:18, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just like Hillary to steal my talking points. Damn those triangulating Clintons!

Hillary is gesturing towards the hard-core antiwar crowd which is beginning to rebel against her, the same way it is rebelling against Lieberman in CT and Cantwell in WA. It's unfortunate to see Bush's war become a wedge issue dividing Democrats.

But a bigger wedge is developing within the GOP over immigration. The hard-core right wing wants to build walls and deport 11 million Hispanics, and I mean they REALLY want it--this has become a make-or-break issue for a huge constituency. It seems to have been a factor in Bilbray's CA House victory.

This is exactly the kind of issue that Karl Rove normally feasts on, based as it is on reactionary conservatism, fear of the "other," and raw emotion rather than reason. But Rove works for the GOP establishment, whose most valued constituency remains the cheap-labor-loving WSJ conservatives. (Let's also allow the possibility that Bush and friends genuinely believe that mass deportation is an untenable policy and recognize that the Hispanic voting bloc is here to stay).

Currently, Rep. Chris Cannon in UT, who is considered fairly right-wing to begin with, is in danger of being ousted in his primary for being insufficiently pure on immigration. His challenger, who has the support of Rep. Tom Tancredo's Team America PAC ("F--k yeah!"), states openly his belief that Satan has deliberately disrupted his fundraising activities, yet this nut is in a dead heat with Cannon, who has the President's full and public support.

No wonder Rove has decided the splinter issue of the year must be Iraq, which at first glance would not seem to be a GOP winner. Newsweek's Jonathan Alter suggests a few ways the Dems can fight back.

 
At 26 June, 2006 10:15, Anonymous Anonymous said...

That Utah primary is tomorrow, by the way--in the interests of newsworthiness.

Where the hell is YHD?

 
At 26 June, 2006 11:05, Blogger Unknown said...

Apologies, Messrs Lee, for my silence of late.

International politics and international sporting events have me quite distracted these days.

For example, Mexico's election (Sunday the 2nd) is quite intriguing—and arguably more so than a Utah primary. My money and my heart lie with Obrador, if you're wondering. His platform seems laudable, in particular his focus on health care and education; and his chances look good.

And don't get me started on the joys of futebol (I'll spell like the Brazilians do, in deference to their lovely mastery). . . .

In any case, I do agree that Edwards is on the right track—here's hoping his momentum builds, at least enough to keep some focus on poverty.

As for the Democrats and the war, I loved waking up this morning to hear that Gen. George Casey, top US military commander in Iraq, had drafted a troop withdrawal plan remarkably like that proposed by Democrats last week.

Even NPR's Juan Williams, who has never been afraid to support the president, agreed that Gen. Casey's proposal sounded remarkably similar to the Democrat's plan—not a bad Monday at all.

 
At 26 June, 2006 14:20, Anonymous Anonymous said...

International politics and sports have you distracted from blogging? I thought those were your favorite blog topics.

Is today really a good day? The administration is gearing up to prosecute the NYT for the sin of reporting on its surveillance activities. Bush calls their article on banking surveillance "disgraceful," Rep. Peter King (R-NY) calls it "treasonous," and Tony Snow has this to say:

"Certainly nobody is going to deny First Amendment rights. But the New York Times and other news organizations ought to think long and hard about whether a public’s right to know in some cases might override somebody’s right to live."

We're right back to Ari Fleischer in 2001 telling us to "watch what we say," except this time the administration appears ready to back up the implied threat.

Also today, the Supreme Court upheld the KS death penalty, a major victory for right-wing poster boy Phill Kline, who argued the case. In dissent, David Souter wrote that the KS death penalty statute was "obtuse by any moral or social measure." Samuel Alito broke the tie in the 5-4 ruling, although he was not present for arguments.

So no, on balance I'm going to say this has not been such a good day. But at least it marked Yancy's return to the blogosphere...

As for Utah, that race is not important in and of itself. As Jon Stewart said last week, the House of Representatives is already "full of crazy jackasses" as it is (a Democrat is not likely to win this district no matter how crazy the GOP nominee is). But it is an indication of the far right's intensity on immigration, which could hurt Democrats (as I think it did in CA 50) if it wakes the right out of its stupor and brings them out to the polls in November.

In the long run, however, it could benefit the Democrats if the GOP is pulled to the far right on the issue and the rapidly expanding Hispanic bloc begins to see Tom Tancredo and Lou Dobbs as the face of the Republican Party rather than Spanish-speaking, immigrant-loving Bush.

 
At 27 June, 2006 07:56, Anonymous Anonymous said...

...and Tuesday may be no better than Monday was, as the Senate is currently debating a flag-burning amendment. As we speak Dianne Feinstein, of all people, is on the floor pontificating on the need for "flag protection."

Protection from WHAT? Exactly how is this inanimate symbol in any danger whatsoever?

Yet because of turncoats like Feinstein and Hillary, the Senate is dangerously close to the votes it needs to essentially overthrow the First Amendment.

Hopefully the count will stay where it was, and this ridiculous farce will be over by the end of the day. Still, it just STUNS me that anyone, (R) or (D), could so blithely trample over the First Amendment, to "protect" a symbol, which by definition cannot be defiled and therefore cannot be protected.

To again quote Kent Brockman: "There's only one word for that, ladies and gentlemen. Idiocy."

 
At 27 June, 2006 11:00, Blogger Unknown said...

Just to be clear: the Senate cannot itself amend the constitution. Even if they were to get the 67 votes, 38 states would still need to ratify it . . .

I suppose that's what's most offensive to me in all of this (as with the marriage business)--they know it's almost guaranteed to fail, and yet they insist on wasting space on my blog with this hooey.

Hope you have an umbrella, and perhaps a raft, DGL.

 
At 27 June, 2006 11:33, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'd say the most offensive thing about this amendment is that it very well MIGHT pass. Given public polling on the issue (as I've cited elsewhere on this blog), I don't think they'd have much problem ratifying it in the states.

I should further clarify that the amendment doesn't itself outlaw anything--it merely gives Congress the power to outlaw flag burning after the Supremes declared such bans unconstitutional in the '80s. So this is really as much about sticking it to those "activist judges," another favorite GOP scapegoat, as it is about anything else.

Sorry to "waste space" on the blog with all this "hooey." I hope the vote today or tomorrow will render the discussion moot, but I'm a bit nervous about it.

I wish the ghastly weather had kept the Congress from meeting this week, if this is the best use they can find for their time. As for me, I've undergone a few soakings and some rail delays, but nothing major.

I can't believe I'm promoting Jay Leno again, but I noticed this bit from last night quoted in Hotline:

"Heavy rains caused so much flooding in Washington, D.C. today that they had to close down the National Archives ... where they keep the Constitution. ... Luckily the Bush administration isn't using the Constitution anymore."

 
At 27 June, 2006 11:58, Blogger Christopher said...

Leno was a good standup, and I'm not surprised to still see a sharp joke make it to the monologue now and then.

But his interviewing stupid people on the street bits . . .

here's james wolcott on the right wing vs. the nytimes:

"Gripes of Wrath
Posted by James Wolcott

In their apoplectic fury over The New York Times's publishing a front page expose of the Terrorist Finance Tracking Program, the White House and their lackeys may be backing themselves into a corner.

Consider what's happened in the last 24 hours. Bush has called the disclosure "disgraceful," looking far angrier (or fake-angrier) than he ever did about the Katrina fuckup. Cheney, of course, released some deep-stomach rumbles. Tony Snow made his displeasure known. And in a cloud of dust rode the Ox-Bow posse, fashioning a necktie for Bill Keller and company. Congressman Peter King, the sort of bullyboy who would have been right at home planted next to Joe McCarthy during the Red Scare, urged criminal prosecution. Today alone I've seen Newt Gingrich employing his full-press sneer to decry the "pathology" of the Times is revealing security secrets, Hugh "The Iceman Cometh" Hewitt demagoguing the issue on CNN, the blue glint in his eyes demanding retribution. The Fox News All Stars haven't yet convened, but I'm certain they're return with a guilty verdict.* The right blogosphere is similarly inflamed. Michelle Malkin and sundry molluscs at PJ media's amateur hour want to release the hounds. The National Review, stepping forward into the chamber with a heavy heart, grumbles, "The administration should withdraw the newspaper’s White House press credentials because this privilege has been so egregiously abused, and an aggressive investigation should be undertaken to identify and prosecute, at a minimum, the government officials who have leaked national-defense information." I didn't bother listening to talk radio, but I'm sure they're baying for blood between commercials for bladder control.

What a gummy uproar. One so loud and ferocious that there almost has to be some follow-through, otherwise you are going to have one frustrated batch of highly indignants. They want the administration to show the Times and the rest of the press who's boss. The neocon contingent is already dismayed with the tiptoeing around Iran's nuclear program, with Ledeen and Perle lodging protests. If the pushback against the Times peters out, if the posse disbands shortly after mounting up, the White House is going to look weak in the bugged-out eyes of its mutant defenders. It'll be interesting to see if the controversy builds or fades over the next few days, and whether or not the Times-bashers will be compelled to call their own bluff. In the meantime, whatever one thinks of the Times's performance leading up to Iraq and the Judith Miller debacle, the ugly threatmongering and barking ("For the Times to release information about secret operations and methods is treasonous”) of Peter King shouldn't go unchallenged. Let him climb the Empire State Building if he wants to work off steam.

*They sure enough did. Fox News All Star and full-time schmendrick Mort Kondracke said, more in anger than sorrow, "I think they [The New York Times] has forgotten that New York is the place 9/11 happened." Only a Beltway coward could be that obtuse."

 
At 27 June, 2006 11:58, Blogger Unknown said...

You're right; I apologize for the hooey comment; guess I'm taking out my distaste for the Senate on you, since they won't take my calls. . . .

That Leno quote is excellent. (A sentence I never thought I'd author.)

Here's to staying dry.

 
At 27 June, 2006 14:58, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oops. Contrary to my earlier tirade, Hillary is NOT voting for the flag burning amendment (I should have remembered--I think you mentioned that in an earlier thread, CR).

She is instead signing on to the Durbin substitute amendment, which would "prohibit damaging the flag on federal land by someone intending a breach of the peace or intimidation of another person." (AP).

In other words, she gets to wrap herself in the flag for political purposes while enacting a law so toothless that it would be a miracle if any flag desecrators were ever prosecuted under it. This law would be a waste of paper but at least would probably not offend the 1st Amendment ... (It also contains a provision outlawing Fred Phelps-like funeral protests, which actually could raise constitutional concerns, but we'll save those for another day).

Ah, Hillary, I've underestimated you again! Anyone see a triangle forming here?

 
At 28 June, 2006 07:06, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Crises averted. The flag amendment falls by one vote, as predicted, and Cannon survives in Utah. This latter event may not be entirely good news from a progressive point of view, but at least it indicates that the rabid anti-immigration bloc is not necessarily going to decide the outcome in November.

It may be out of line to ask this, but what's up with the female Democrats and flag burning? Feinstein, Landrieu, Lincoln, and Stabenow all crossed over to vote "yea," while Hillary and Boxer (I believe) both signed on to the Durbin compromise.

 
At 28 June, 2006 07:59, Blogger Christopher said...

from tapped:

GUTSY. Note that on the flag-burning amendment, Robert Byrd voted against.

Even though he’s from red West Virginia. Even though Jay Rockefeller voted yea. Even though he’s involved in a potentially tough reelection campaign against a simian blowhard from my hometown named John Raese who will demagogue this to death. Even though virtually every other Democrat facing an election this year -- especially those from red states, and even one from a blue state (Bob Menendez) -- voted yeah. (The roll call is here.) Even though Byrd could have been the 67th and thus decisive vote in favor.

“Old Glory lives because the Constitution lives,” Byrd said. “We love that flag, but we love the guarantees of the Constitution more.” He’s willingly created a potentially difficult situation for himself because of an actual belief! Bravo.

--Michael Tomasky

 

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16 June 2006

Spies, Lies, & Burning Flags

After banging the drum loudly, I must grudgingly accept that it appears Rove will walk away from the Plame mess unindicted. We have no one's word but his lawyer, Robert "Gold Bars" Luskin, but one presumes Luskin isn't pushing wishful fantasies. I will, however, reiterate that Karl Rove was knee deep in the Plame/Wilson bashing, lied about his role, and made liars out of George Bush and Scott McClellan. Well, maybe Rove didn't make Bush & Scottie liars, but you get my drift.

Dig deeper into the background of this story - further back than the leak, beyond the 16 words in the state of the union, and a truly sensational story emerges. Vanity Fair has the story, and I strongly urge you to give it a look see. I have always love the Sy Hersh theory* for the origin of the phony Niger allegation that crept into the state of the union address. But this article finds that theory lacking.

*the crudely forged documents that show Iraq's intention to procure huge amounts of yellow cake from Niger were a trap laid by the cia to get meddling administration hawks off their back. the idea being that a midlevel hack will overplay his hand with intel that is clearly bunk, and the administration hawks will lose steam and stop politicizing intelligence. only the cia forgers were shocked to hear the allegation & documents cited in a state of the union speech - thinking it would die much lower on the vine. a great tale of too-clever beauracratic angling that appears to be false.

Pay attention to the involvement of Michael Ledeen. I knew of his involvement in Iran contra, but I was completely ignorant of his international Billy Carter & Pope scandal mongering. Sounds juicy? Read the article.

Michael Kinsley has a lovely piece on Kafka and wiretapping.

The Washington Monthly tears into the cannard that Bush is hurting conservativism:
"Conservative dissidents . . . extolled the president's conservative leadership when he was riding high in the polls. But the real flaw in their argument is akin to that of Trotskyites who, when confronted with the failures of communism in Cuba, China and the Soviet Union, would claim that real communism had never been tried.
{snip}
The collapse of the Bush presidency, in other words, is not just due to Bush's incompetence (although his administration has been incompetent beyond belief). Nor is it a response to the president's principled lack of intellectual curiosity and pitbull refusal to admit mistakes (although those character flaws are certainly real enough). And the orgy of bribery and special-interest dispensation in Congress is not the result of Tom DeLay's ruthlessness, as impressive a bully as he was. This conservative presidency and Congress imploded, not despite their conservatism, but because of it.

Contemporary conservatism is first and foremost about shrinking the size and reach of the federal government. This mission, let us be clear, is an ideological one. It does not emerge out of an attempt to solve real-world problems, such as managing increasing deficits or finding revenue to pay for entitlements built into the structure of federal legislation. It stems, rather, from the libertarian conviction, repeated endlessly by George W. Bush, that the money government collects in order to carry out its business properly belongs to the people themselves.
{snip}
Americans have learned something about the consequences of conservative ideas during the Bush years that they never had to confront in the more amiable Reagan period. As a way of governing, conservatism is another name for disaster. And the disasters will continue, year after year, as long as conservatives, whose political tactics are frequently as brilliant as their policy-making is inept, find ways to perpetuate their power."

As a "common good" democrat, I appreciate the jab at liberterians.

I'll close out with a flag burning piece by Vietnam Vet., former governor & senator, & current New School president Bob Kerrey.

"Real patriotism cannot be coerced. Our freedom to speak was attacked -- not our flag. The former, not the latter, needs the protection of our Constitution and our laws."

6 Comments:

At 18 June, 2006 12:56, Blogger Christopher said...

Meet the Press- Murtha called bullshit on Rove:

ROVE (TAPE): Like too many Democrats, it strikes me they are ready to give the green light to go to war, but when it gets tough and when it gets difficult, they fall back on that party’s old pattern of cutting and running. They may be with you at the first shots, but they are not going to be there for the last, tough battles. They are wrong and profoundly wrong in their approach.

RUSSERT: Cutting and running.

MURTHA: He’s in New Hampshire. He’s making a political speech. He’s sitting in his air-conditioned office on his big, fat backside, saying stay the course. That’s not a plan. I don’t know what his military experience is, but that’s a political statement. This is a policy difference between me and the White House. I disagree completely with what he’s saying.

Now, let’s give you an example. When we went to Beirut, I said to President Reagan, get out. The other day we were doing a debate and they said, Beirut was a different situation, we cut and run. We didn’t cut and run. President Reagan made the decision to change direction because he knew he couldn’t win it. Even in Somalia, President Clinton made the decision, “we have to change direction.” Even with tax cuts, when we had a tax cut, under Reagan we then had an increase.

We need to change directions. We can’t win a war like this. This guy is sitting back there criticizing — political criticism, getting paid by the public taxpayer, and he’s saying to us, “We’re winning this war and they’re running”? We’ve got to change direction. You can’t sit there in the air-conditioned office and tell troops carrying 70 pounds on their backs inside these armored vessels hit with IEDs every day, seeing their friends blown up, their buddies blown up, and he says stay the course? Easy to say that from Washington, DC.

 
At 19 June, 2006 15:44, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Score one for Murtha. I was very impressed with him last week, when he was arguing his heart out against the ridiculous GOP "stay-the-course" resolution. Sadly, 42 Democrats caved in and voted "yes."

While I'd like to think Barack Obama would not have fallen for such a cheap ploy, it turns out his take on the war is closer to Hillary than Murtha. When asked on a Bloomberg TV show this weekend whether he agreed with John Kerry about troop withdrawal, he said:

"I agree this has been a mistake. Back in 2002 when I was still candidate for the United States Senate I gave a speech to one of the first big anti-war demonstrations in Chicago in which I said I'm not opposed to all wars but I'm opposed to dumb wars and as far as I could tell I didn't see evidence of weapons of mass destruction. I didn't see a connection to Al Qaeda. I thought this could cost us billions of dollars and thousands of lives."

"It's my belief we should start phasing down our troop levels this year but I think it is important for us to understand, and I said this even as I opposed us getting in, that once we were there we had both strategic interests and moral obligations to make sure that Iraq doesn't collapse into all-out civil war and that remains the best way for us to bring our troops home."

"The way I would characterize it is that we made a strategic error. Having made that error we now have a genuine interest in assuring that there's at least some semblance to stability in Iraq."

"I think that it is important for us to recognize that there was a significant victory not just in the killing of Zarqawi but, more importantly in finally completing the cabinet of the new government. ... If they're able to build on that and create a national unity government ... then I think we have the opportunity not for the Jeffersonian democracy that George Bush promised, but at least sufficient stability that it allows us to pull out and for the Iraqis to look after themselves."

A not unreasonable point of view, but it won't make the base happy.

The Tomasky piece helped me understand this concept of the "greater good" a bit better, CR. I don't agree with his argument that special interest groups should always support Democrats--how then could they ever gain any political leverage?--but I could see how the "greater good" idea could work as an overall campaign theme.

I also enjoyed the "gold bars" link. It is interesting to note that Sheldon Whitehouse, the U.S. atty who went after Luskin back in '97, is now the Democratic candidate for Senate in Rhode Island, and is receiving some very high-profile support.

 
At 20 June, 2006 07:40, Blogger Christopher said...

yeah, obama needs a new line soon if he wants to run. my biggest problem with him right now is his war stance, and that's a big problem. this might not be the issue that he uses to distance himself from the base.

hell, murtha is pro-life (or close to it) but i'd love to see him be majority leader. he's an example of a candidate who could give fits to interest groups. but if he's the only convincing strong voice from the party to oppose the war (the most important issue of our day)they had better not support a rival candidate. i'm not saying they should spend their $ to support him if he's not on board with their issue, but maybe they could sit it out. greater good, man.

obama ought to engage on this issue. sounds like he's spouting boilerplate. and this "dems don't need to fix bush's problem' line probably doesn't resonate with families of fallen soldiers. are dems not gonna fix health care, or FEMA, or push for reform? For a long time, i've thought the onus was clearly more on bush (and still is) and criticizing the dems for not having a plan was beside the point. but for major, influential figures (hillary, obama), the time has long past for playing coy.

i wonder what kind of stability we've got in iraq, or will have in the magic "six months" that friedman and others keep asking us to wait for. "reassess in six months" - it's been 3yrs. pull the curtains.

 
At 20 June, 2006 08:02, Blogger Christopher said...

for some compelling points on how dems can frame the iraq issue in '06 (not how individual potential candidates should position for '08) - here are two reader comments from talkingpointsmemo.com:

"I'd like to see the main Democratic talking point become, "Bush will be in Iraq forever. Period. The Democrats will extricate us. Period." And let the administration convince the public otherwise. I think if the Dems just keep saying, over and over, "Republicans want us there forever, that's why we have no timetables, that's why THEY ARE building permanent bases, etc.," this would be a useful evolution of the basic description of the situation."

"Any attempt to ask Democratic candidates what their plan is for Iraq should be met with a "I am not the President, and won't have the power to implement any such plan if elected, so that is a ridiculous request. What I *can* do, however, is hold this administration accountable for their mistakes. Do you want more Iraqs and disastrous responses to natural disasters? Or do you want a Congress that thinks 'checks and balances' means 'holding the President accountable', not being the President's rubber stamp. Never was the wisdom of our nation's founders more apparant in the need for a Congress as a check on the President, and never has there been a Congress as woefully inadequate in*being* a check on the President".

The question of the Democratic plan for Iraq is something that has to wait until 2008, when it is actually relevant."

i sure don't see the need for a unified democratic plan for iraq for '06. but dems itching to run in '08 better have some ideas. we already ran an election that critiqued iraq in 2004.

right now, kerry, feingold, & murtha are the key incumbents pushing the envelope on this. regardless of their motives, or how this will ultimately affect their political futures, good for them. but i thought i should post those 2 very well reasoned comments on why a dem plan is a little beside the point - esp. in regards to '06.

but you better have something to say when republicans and the media say that it's easy to criticize a tough war, harder to wage and end it.

 
At 20 June, 2006 08:12, Blogger Christopher said...

and on obama's point that "there was a significant victory not just in the killing of Zarqawi but, more importantly in finally completing the cabinet of the new government. ..." i think murtha really gutted this line of reasoning by pointing out that the development of this government is all in the green zone - totally cut off from the rest of iraq and that the government is essentially in a fortress where saddam was. and that the zarqawi killing was essentially done from the outside the country with aerial bombs. the kind of thing we could accomplish if we re-deploy to the horizon, as murtha suggests.

also, and murtha kind of did this, go after bush on this the way rove would. counter-intuitive. say bush doesn't have a plan - not escalating or bringing troops home, just kind of drifting. which is probably the worst thing you could do in a war. and characterize their attacks as playing politics, while dems are worried about the policy, security, and the soldiers. so invert it: the republicans are playing politics with national security and they have no plan for the war they created that is three years old. and they control all levers of power.

 
At 21 June, 2006 08:39, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Iraq is such a tough call that I think it's a credit to the Democrats that they have not shown more "party discipline" on the issue. Their ambivalence-leaning-toward-opposition on the war is much more reflective of the public mood than the GOP's lockstep support.

I think Obama's and Hillary's positions are reasonable and principled (in line with Kerry '04's "pottery barn" rule), and I don't think they should be excluded from '08 consideration because of them.

However, your arguments in favor of pulling out are compelling, CR. I find myself seduced by the power of your words.

A good place for Dems to draw the line and demonstrate some party discipline should have been that noxious war resolution in the House. How could any Dem, hawkish or not, vote "yea" on equating the war in Iraq with the "global war on terror?"

I'm looking at you, Stephanie Herseth, Melissa Bean, Leonard Boswell, and Dennis Moore! (I'm surprised you haven't emailed HH about this, Yance.)

 

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08 June 2006

a la carte

Much has transpired since our last posts, so let me begin with the most recent developments.

Bush V. Bush
Sidney Blumenthal has an interesting scoop on Salon about Bush 1 trying to convince Bush 2 to drop Rummy. It turns out, most of the piece is on Haditha, so I'll post the scoop here:

"Former President George H.W. Bush waged a secret campaign over several months early this year to remove Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. The elder Bush went so far as to recruit Rumsfeld's potential replacement, personally asking a retired four-star general if he would accept the position, a reliable source close to the general told me. But the former president's effort failed, apparently rebuffed by the current president. When seven retired generals who had been commanders in Iraq demanded Rumsfeld's resignation in April, the younger Bush leapt to his defense. "I'm the decider and I decide what's best. And what's best is for Don Rumsfeld to remain," he said. His endorsement of Rumsfeld was a rebuke not only to the generals but also to his father.

The elder Bush's intervention was an extraordinary attempt to rescue simultaneously his son, the family legacy and the country. The current president had previously rejected entreaties from party establishment figures to revamp his administration with new appointments. There was no one left to approach him except his father. This effort to pluck George W. from his troubles is the latest episode in a recurrent drama -- from the drunken young man challenging his father to go "mano a mano" on the front lawn of the family home in Kennebunkport, Maine, to the father pulling strings to get the son into the Texas Air National Guard and helping salvage his finances from George W.'s mismanagement of Harken Energy. For the father, parental responsibility never ends. But for the son, rebellion continues. When journalist Bob Woodward asked George W. Bush if he had consulted his father before invading Iraq, he replied, "He is the wrong father to appeal to in terms of strength. There is a higher father that I appeal to."

Lauer V. Coulter
Check out the video
here
.

Warner V. Feingold
Last weekend two likely presidential candidates made their case in New Hampshire.

I think Warner and Feingold are pretty good representatives of the two sides of today's Democratic party. I don't mind Warner's centrism, as long as it isn't just watered down bad ideas - Liebermanesque social security reform compromises, etc. And I don't mind Feingold's bolder approach so long as it isn't just about civil liberties. Don't get me wrong, protecting civil liberties is not a mistake for Dems, or anyone, but framing the debate as protecting American lives or civil liberties, and Dems lose. Democrats like Feingold need to make sure they appear to want to protect America as much as they want to punish Bush. That doesn't mean he has to change any of his positions. Feingold, and his ilk, have to find the right balance on what they emphasize. And Warner, and his ilk, have to not compromise their way to oblivion on Iraq, SSC reform, immigration, etc. Here's a Washington Post interview with Feingold.

Warner V. Hillary
The nytimes reports that Warner has criticized Hillary, making him the first potential candidate to do so. Sure, it's a process critique, not one of policy, but this will likely be a huge trend in the primaries: to what extent do you attack or ignore Hillary?

Hillary V. Gore

These two pieces from New York Magazine focus on a Gore run and what that might mean to Hillary.

Hillary V. Everybody
MSNBC on more Clinton concerns.

And, of course, there's much more Gore. I haven't seen AN INCONVENIENT TRUTH yet, but I hope that Gore and his film have an impact on the primaries. Or, at least, he can keep doing bits for SNL.

With all this in mind, who looks like the best prospect for '08? It's obviously way early, but going by the current climate at home and abroad, the policies and personalities, who looks good? Right now, I'll go with Obama, even though it is far from clear that he is running. (currently the likely field is Hillary, Warner, Feingold, Biden, Kerry, Edwards, Dodd, Richardson, Vilsack, Bayh, whew!) I'm going with Obama because I think he's a mix of the qualities you can find in Feingold and John Edwards, with the name recognition of Hillary. He ought to run, not because he's ready, (he can do some crash courses before the inauguration) but because it's unlikely that his star power will grow. He faces diminishing returns, so strike while the iron is hot.

And does the Democratic Party need a plan on Iraq for '06 and/or '08? Or is it more important that each candidate have a plan? What kind of a plan do you prefer? On this, I'll go with Jack Murtha.

23 Comments:

At 11 June, 2006 13:30, Blogger Unknown said...

Nicely done; much to consider.

I'll leave Ms Coulter to her self-destruction, though that video is amusing.

As for '08, I found myself surprised by the preference for Obama, and yet more surprised by my agreement with you, Mr Lee. Although he's young and doesn't have much legislation to trumpet, you're right in pointing out that he's got some star-power now, and he might as well use it.

Not a bad speaker, either—here's my favorite bit from his generally good commencement address at Knox College:
Our economic dominance has depended on individual initiative and belief in the free market; but it has also depended on our sense of mutual regard for each other, the idea that everybody has a stake in the country, that we're all in it together and everybody's got a shot at opportunity - that has produced our unrivaled political stability.
Exactly.

Loved the Al Gore clip; great satire, and it's a nice reminder of Gore's sense of humor—beats the Two Bushes bit any day of the week.

On another note, Joe Klein wrote a nice review of the Beinart book which ran in today's Sunday Times book review section.

I think my stance on the book (which, alas, I still have not read in full) is clear, so I'll just offer this quote and voice my approval:
Beinart's argument for a return to a more judicious American idealism seems essential. The world's problems will not be solved by authoritarians or, in most cases, by a superpower acting alone. If President Bush is right when he says democracy is the truest path toward global stability, he is wrong when he calls freedom a "gift from the Almighty." Beinart knows that freedom is a struggle, not a gift, and that democracy is an achievement, and not always attainable. It requires economic nurture and sometimes military support, and the humility of action taken only within an international context. It requires a fervent attention to detail and, above all, patience.
Huzzah.

 
At 12 June, 2006 09:25, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree with your analysis of Feingold and Warner, CR. However, what we're more likely to see in '08 is Hillary on the ticket, trying to act like Warner but attacked by the GOP for being too much like Feingold. Some Democrats are nervous about this, but I think it's about as palatable as any other scenario.

I'm OK with Gore, as well, although the groundswell in his favor seems to be mostly a media creation as far as I can tell.

I disagree on Obama. This is the presidency we're talking about, not a stock speculation. The guy has to prove himself in the Senate; he's done well so far, but this job is too important to hand off to the prettiest face.

The worst-case scenario would be for him to run this time and ruin his career before it's started, with a gaffe in the harsh light of the prez campaign. Let's allow him to make whatever rookie mistakes he's going to make in the less harsh light of the Senate.

If he's truly presidential material, he'll be even more viable in '12 or '16. (If McCain wins in '08, he's going to be awfully old by 2012, and if CR is to be believed, he'll be weakened by his unilateral war against Iran).

I respect Murtha's position, yet I can't escape the fear that withdrawal would make things worse. We shouldn't have gone in the first place and now that we're there every option is bad--withdraw, stay the course, fire Rummy, don't fire Rummy--all fruits of the poisonous tree.

YHD, the article on Beinart clarified some things for me. I'm glad to see him own up to his mistake on Iraq and acknowledge that this was a violation of the very principles he's promoting in his book.

But Klein and Beinart also seem to be arguing (forgive me if I'm misreading) that liberals should promote free trade, as part of this program of internationalism over isolationism. Does this pose a problem for you, YHD?

Also, just as a footnote, I still have trouble with the uncritical hero-worship of the only world leader in history to use atomic weapons, killing an estimated 200,000 people, mostly innocent civilians, and then claim not to lose a wink of sleep over it. I know Beinart is lionizing him for Cold War policy, not WWII, but still ...

 
At 12 June, 2006 12:48, Blogger Christopher said...

I'm not saying the scenario is perfect with Obama, but I think experience is overrated.

And I'm not sure what more experience in the senate will do for obama in terms of executive preparation. We've run really experienced guys lately, and it certainly doesn't help politically. I'm not sure how much it helps policy-wise. Clinton had 12 years of experience, but was probably more green in '93 on foreign affairs than Obama is right now.

Obama did get elected to the Illinois state senate in 1996. He's a true star. I don't know if he can sustain that. He may be perfectly seasoned for failure in '12 and beyond.

And he'll be just about as experienced as Mark Warner by the time he would have to declare.

In terms of Truman, I've always been a big fan, but his legacy does have a huge shadow. I will say this: post 9/11 and after all of Bush's destructive and negligent turn at the helm, it's clear that all of those presidents who seemed mediocre to many(bush 1, clinton, ford, carter)were highly underrated. JFK and Truman have also been a little overrated.

I do think dems can learn lessons from jfk & hst in terms of style & politics, but I'm not sure that they were significantly better presidents than Carter and Clinton.

 
At 13 June, 2006 07:32, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think a lot of people, even if inclined to like Obama, will share my gut feeling that it's too soon. I love the guy, but it just doesn't sit well.

From what I can tell, even HE doesn't believe he has enough experience.

Maybe Warner doesn't, either, but he at least governed a red state for four years, and quite successfully by all accounts.

I guess JFK and HST were more successful at articulating a vision (Marshall Plan/containment, Peace Corps) and carrying it out than were Clinton and Carter.

One former Republican congressman (a moderate--ah, for the good old days!) told my seminar group here last year that Carter "couldn't pass a Mother's Day resolution." Carter did enrich the idiom by introducing us to the concept of "stagflation." And Clinton had his health care debacle, and Somalia, which is now coming back to haunt us again. But at least these two don't have a Nagasaki or a Vietnam in their legacy.

I've always loved Truman, and I know he thought he was doing the right thing, but I think Dave Barry really nailed it when he wrote that the justification for Nagasaki seemed to be that, "Hey, we had another bomb!"

 
At 13 June, 2006 08:08, Blogger Christopher said...

I might also make the case that experience can teach us the wrong lessons. For example, many democrats voted for the resolution because they remembered all too well the embarassment they faced when they voted against Desert Storm. They thought a new Iraq war, justifiable or not, would be quick and relatively painless.

And Hillary is the only potential candidate who voted for the war that hasn't said she would do it any differently. Edwards, Biden, and Kerry have all expressed regrets over their choice.

And if Hillary thinks she'll capture hearts and minds by supporting flag burning ammendments - oh sorry, she opposes an ammendment to ban flag burning but supports federal legislation making it a crime to burn the flag and compared flag burning to cross burnings. Oy! Bring on Obama.

 
At 13 June, 2006 08:15, Blogger Christopher said...

You're right - Carter was pretty poor at dealing with Congress. He did however, as Fritz Mondale said, keep the peace. And the Camp David Peace Accords were no mean feat.

I might argue that we're still paying some a the price for the Korean War. But I can't help liking Truman too.

Definitely the bomb falls into the "momentum of events" theory of history. Truman, relatively unknown and thrust into the presidency, is told of a secret project that can end the war. They didn't spend all that time, money, and manpower on a bomb they weren't going to use. Doesn't make it right, but I can see how it happened.

 
At 13 June, 2006 08:44, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Obama will undoubtedly be a better candidate than Hillary--when he's ready. I'd hate to see him pressured into a premature candidacy just because he's the "it girl" of the moment.

Hillary's flag-burning "stance" is the only unsupportable thing she's done, in my opinion. Typical Clintonian cynicism. The courts would overturn such a law anyway.

Still, I'll take triangulation and competence over dogma and incompetence any day.

As for her Iraq vote, I'm not sure it's relevant whether she repudiates it as long as she repudiates elective, preemptive, unilateral war, which I think she will.

Beinart and Tomasky have just begun a dialogue on Slate. Beinart just fired the first shot, and boy, is he pissed!

 
At 13 June, 2006 09:07, Blogger Christopher said...

But it is important. It tells us that you learned from your mistake, even if your mistake was a misdemeanor when compared to the prez's felony.

To not admit it was a mistake muddies the water when you try to attack the strategy. Do we really think the only problem with this war was the execution? You don't lose hearts & minds by being too anti-Irq war. You lose them by seeming like you criticize it but wouldn't do much differently. That's what killed Kerry. Not his charm deficit or the moral issue voters. Many people agreed with his criticisms of the war, but he got so middle of the road-defensive-parsing when it came to his support for the resolution that people generally assumed his criticisms were self serving and in reality, he wouldn't do much differently. He didn't have a well articulated vision on what to do differently on Iraq. God knows it hurt Wes Clark to support the resolution but oppose the war.

You know that if she wants to engage on the iraq issue, the russerts and the matthews are gonna say " but you voted for the resolution . . . " and then the backtracking and the defensiveness and you sound like a "politician."

How you talk about that vote matters - "i voted for it before i voted against it." You say "Bush was wrong to engage in an elective, pre-emptive, unilateral war and I was wrong to pass a resolution that allowed him to do so."

If you voted for the war and you're not Joe Lieberman, just come out & say you were wrong, then get into how you would have and will do it differently.

Otherwise you're backpedaling and doing fancy pivots.

You certainly shouldn't base your run on what you did in the fall of '03, and we don't need to flog our candidates for it either. But it's going to come up, and you need a clean simple way to dismiss it. Best way is to say "I was wrong."

I also read in New York Magazine recently how Hillary is pretty much silent on the war, and that she should pull a RFK on vietnam and come out against it full bore. He admitted that some policies that he supported in JFK's terms led to the quagmire, but now (1968) he was fully opposed. I might feel a lot differently about her if she staked out that ground. But I won't hold my breath.

 
At 13 June, 2006 14:37, Anonymous Anonymous said...

She has said she doesn't favor immediate withdrawal or a timetable, so I doubt she'll go the RFK-Vietnam route anytime soon.

You're right that she'll need to articulate a more definite plan, as every candidate will. But we're still like 29 months away from the damn election!

As for what the best plan is ... well, the easiest thing for a Democrat trying to appease the base is to say let's withdraw. That's what Kerry is doing now, having apparently learned the lesson that you've articulated above.

But, politics aside, is that the best policy? I'm not so sure. Now that we're invested in Iraq should we just bail and risk civil war and/or an Iranian-style theocracy?

Personally, I'm torn. Maybe the right course of action will seem more obvious by next year when the primary campaigns begin.

 
At 13 June, 2006 14:42, Anonymous Anonymous said...

By the way, what's Obama's plan? Is he ready to take this kind of heat?

Does he get a pass just because he wasn't around to vote in '03?

 
At 13 June, 2006 15:36, Blogger Unknown said...

Did you see this Obama quote in a New Yorker from April?
“In political terms, I don’t think that Democrats are obligated to solve Iraq for the Administration.” He added, “I think that, for the good of the country, we’ve got to be constructive in figuring out what’s going to be best. I’ve taken political hits from certain quarters in the Democratic Party for even trying to figure this out. I feel that obligation. I’ll confess to you, though, I haven’t come up with any novel, unique answer so far.”

Now, that's not a plan, but it's at least also not grandstanding.

As for Hillary, she is calculating, and has lately been saying ridiculous things ("young people today think work is a four-letter word"—that's both insulting and inane; 'work' is a four-letter word, no? Okay, sorry.), but I would vote for her over many (not Obama, but many). Just think what a relief it would be to finally have a woman president. . . .

Thanks for linking to that Beinart piece on Slate, DGL—it's pretty hilarious, and he seems to make a good case against Tomasky's review.

 
At 14 June, 2006 07:57, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Beinart and Tomasky aren't arguing over policy at all; they seem to agree on the issues.

The argument is over whether Beinart is sufficiently repentant for supporting the war in '03, which coincidentally is exactly what CR and I are debating with regard to Hillary.

Maybe the advantage for an Obama or a Warner is that we wouldn't have to revisit '03 during the campaign as we do with Hillary, Kerry, Edwards, etc. But that still wouldn't get us any closer to solving the Iraq quagmire, a task which may ultimately fall to Democrats.

Obama looks and talks pretty. The only question is, where's the beef?

 
At 14 June, 2006 08:05, Blogger Christopher said...

Obama has been coy, or honestly unsure of what do to in Iraq, but it is different.

He wasn't there in '03, so yes he gets a pass of sorts. He won't have to defend a vote.

And hillary has been pretty hawkish on Iraq. It feels (and I know this is an easy criticism to make of the Clintons - but it's easy for a reason) like a run to the middle or right. Maybe foreign policy isn't the place for that.

JFK ran on a phony missile gap in 1960, and it worked for him. But there are real consequences to such political expediency and the legacy of vietnam maybe in some small way tied in to that missile gap issue. He may have wanted to be genuinely tough on the soviets, but the way he ran in 1960, he had to be. Running to the right of Nixon and Eisenhower may have worked in 1960, but it may have also screwed the country in terms of Vietnam.

So, hillary votes for the resolution in 2003, and is making noise about running to bush's right on iran. If that is her genuine position, that's one thing. But taking aggressive positions on foreign policy for electability purposes can be bad news for all of us. If she concludes that her best option is to fight her image problems by being a warrior, she may feel the need to act on that promise when she shouldn't.

Advocating a forseeable redeployment or pull out is no less a serious option just because it appeals to the democratic base. It may be the right option, and the base was right on this war.

And staying the course in Iraq just delays the inevitable crises that will occur if we were to depart soon. Only, in the meantime, we lose more of our young. I don't see how that's a more responsible option.

Opposing a failed war shouldn't be any more controversial a position than supporting it.

 
At 14 June, 2006 11:19, Blogger Unknown said...

Well, I don't see why Obama has to completely avoid '03; he's said he would have voted against the resolution, and this speech from October 2002 makes his stance pretty clear.

Some favorite quotes of mine:
I don’t oppose all wars. What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by [former Pentagon policy adviser] Richard Perle and [Deputy Defense Secretary] Paul Wolfowitz and other armchair, weekend warriors in this administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.

and this:
That’s what I’m opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics. Now let me be clear: I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power.… The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him. But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors…and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history.

As for Murtha's and other plans, it may be naïve, but it seems to me that the only palatable option is to find a way (and presumably only a Democrat could to it at this point) to bring in the Blue Hats. A UN peace-keeping force, preferably with troops from Arab nations, would stand a much better chance than our military does of bringing some stability to Iraq.

Or so it appears to me.

 
At 14 June, 2006 11:31, Blogger Christopher said...

The blue hats makes as much sense as any option I've seen. I say, and I'm no military strategist, you do a mix of the Clark/Kerry idea of setting up a big conference with regional leaders (presumably easier to do with new leadership) deploy to the horizon (murtha), bring in the blue hats (yancy).

I would say that today, Tomasky has the upper hand. The New Republic, and Beinart has been a big part of this, is often way more critical of dems than conservatives. An odd critique to make, I would think, in the lead up to the Iraq invasion.

It matters who was right on Vietnam, and it matters who was/is right on Iraq. Not so that we can get out the tar & feather, but to learn something from calamity.

You're right, Yancy, Obama had a pretty clear stance on the invasion, and a less clear stance on what to do now. But he (as opposed to hillary, kerry, edwards, biden, & beinart) was right then and that makes a difference.

This debate (tomasky/beinart's- hillary/gore or whomever else opposed invasion) is an excellent one for dems to have now so that they can draw some conclusions and move forward when '08 comes around.

 
At 14 June, 2006 11:52, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good comments, guys. Much for me to think about.

Thanks for the Obama '02 excerpt, Yancy. Today's Obama is much more cautious than that Obama, though he still gives a good speech. You're getting me to come around, but I still don't think he should run this time.

Ominous news off the wire:

CNN POLL
June 8-11
Constitutional Amendment to Make Flag-Burning Illegal
Favor 56%
Oppose 40%

It's a true Kent Brockman moment: "I've said it before and I'll say it again. Democracy just doesn't work."

 
At 14 June, 2006 12:21, Blogger Christopher said...

that is an ominous poll.

i am enjoying this back & forth.

i believe that rfk did not come out against the war until late in the game, he certainly jumped into the primaries after mccarthy scared johnson away. so by the rfk standard, hillary may be right on schedule.

but the point is, regardless of her plans, it is assumed that hillary will run and she appears to be taking the appropriate steps. as a presumptive candidate and frontrunner, and as a sitting senator, she would do well to be a bit clearer on her position on iraq - past present & future.

i don't think you can, or should, finesse this.

not only is it a good time to suss out democrats' options on iraq, but also the party's approach to domestic policies/politics. i'm still enamored with tomasky's idea of moving toward the greater good and less of the group rights focus.

i'd hate to waste another primary season watching candidates flex over who's the most pro-choice and who is the most pro-gay. those issues are not irrelevant, but they don't make for much of a unifying platform.

a "we're all in this together" theme on foreign & domestic issues may fit the post 9/11 moment. i say it's time to move away from niche politics.

 
At 14 June, 2006 12:24, Blogger Christopher said...

one point i forgot to drive home in the above comment - as a sitting, influential senator, hillary could affect change right now. not just as a candidate or president.

dems are in the minority, but with her name recognition she might be able to move the debate forward were she so inclined.

 
At 14 June, 2006 14:29, Blogger Unknown said...

That's a great point, Chris, about today's Hillary—a little less "you know what's wrong with kids today?" and a little more substance would be good for her, good for the party, and—dammit—good for America.

I don't know about Beinart (that Cup has kept me away from Slate thus far today), but it's not group rights that interest me; it's individual rights.

Torture; warrantless wire-tapping; rendition; detention without charges or trials—these are major violations of individual rights, rights guaranteed not only by treaties we've signed, but by our own founding documents. If we value democracy, we must value—and fight for—individual rights. Dammit.

 
At 14 June, 2006 14:57, Blogger Christopher said...

i don't think that rights business is much of a debate between beinart & tomasky - it's just that tomasky was pushing for a greater good over interest group-centric policies. One would hope that a "common good" emphasis would also be a boon for individual rights as it's for the greater good that we stop torturing & wiretapping illegally.

the way things operate today, many progressive pursuits can be dismissed by voters as being beholden to some far out environmental lobby, or a teachers union. i don't want unions & lobbyists to disapear, but i would like the party to stop catering to single issue groups.

serve the issues and the individuals by connecting it to the common/greater good. clearly, as tomasky points out, something is wrong when an evironmental lobby suports a conservative pol for one issue when the rest of said pol's voting habits would spell disaster for progressive goals.

i don't mind interest groups leveraging influence in washington. i just don't want democratic candidates having to kneel down to each and every group. for example, if a candidate chooses to say "i'm pro choice but am for less abortions" some pro-choice groups blanch. should they get to determine if this candidate is fit?
is that a good way to pick a nominee?

 
At 15 June, 2006 08:45, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think the Democrats have done much more than the Republicans in recent years to declare independence from interest group politics, for better or worse. If anything, I'd say the interest groups on the left have less influence than any time in memory.

Clinton and the DLC sort of pioneered it, beginning with NAFTA, which defied the labor unions.

This year, Chuck Schumer and the DSCC have strongly supported candidates on the basis of centrist electability--Webb in VA, a former Reaganite who has spoken out against affirmative action, and Casey in PA, who's pro-life. The interest groups sure didn't pick those candidates.

Today, Pelosi is trying to expel Rep. Jefferson from the Ways and Means Committee over heavy objections from the Congressional Black Caucus, who point out that white congressmen Dan Rostenkowski and Gary Condit did not undergo similar expulsions.

Some of this is probably to the "greater good," although we all have our own ideas of what the "greater good" is; the Republicans think their policies promote the greater good.

But there's always a cost for moving center. The cost is that your base doesn't get fired up--they may even look to a third party--and it becomes more and more difficult to define what your party stands for. The "greater good" party is just too vague.

It's hard out here for a Dem. When they listen to the special interests they're tarred as liberals or panderers, and when they defy liberal orthodoxy they're tarred as a party with no identity.

 
At 15 June, 2006 11:00, Blogger Christopher said...

perhaps it is too vague.

and i'm not interested in breaking w/special interests just to flaunt a candidate's independence. I just want the party, and future prez. campaigns to be more than the sum of its parts (issue wise & special interest group wise).

tomasky's common good theme appeals to me as i am a more communitarian democrat than a libertarian dem.

i just think it's a helpful way to frame issues. it's for all of our good to fund homeland security, flood relief, health care, etc. it's not just serving the agenda of distinct groups.

maybe this is obvious, but it relates to the idea that campaigns should be more than just a checklist of policies. you have to find a unified narrative to draw in media & voters to support you over the course of a campaign, and you have to find a unified coherent approach to get support for the checklist of policies over the course of a generation or at least an administration.

voters & media see policos as totally beholden to their interest groups. i'm more supportive of teachers unions than the nra, but the party and the next candidate would do well to defy that image by being a big idea big picture party.

whether or not you ever use the terms common good or greater good, it seems like a great approach to me.

consistently appeal to something bigger than the sum of the issues/interest groups.

and make that "something bigger" real and not just a slogan.

he wasn't a superb candidate, but bill bradley was on to something when he ran in 2000 and tried to focus on 3 big issues (health care, poverty, campaign finance reform) and remarked how the only reason you would run for president is to improve the lives of millions of americans. not just this or that group (even though that's clearly part of the game).

that's something that kerry & gore never really tapped into. you vote for me, you know the following 3 or 4 big things will happen: . . .

to me the way you run the campaign, the focus of the party in the future, it's all the same.

i just think it would be wise to make the case that the policies you espouse would benefit all - not just your obvious political brethren.

 
At 16 June, 2006 13:32, Blogger Christopher said...

more on dems & iraq from matthew yglesias:

THE WAR: IT'S HERE, IT'S REAL, GET USED TO IT. Yesterday's scummy GOP political stunts over Iraq were, of course, scummy. At the same time, though, Democrats are paying the price for the ostrich-like attitude they've taken to the war ever since the 2004 election. There's been this persistent hope that either the Bush administration would declare victory and go home, or else that the mounting casualties, costs, and unpopularity of the venture would somehow allow a bipartisan truce to prevail letting Democrats wage a campaign that's all about ethics and prescription drugs.

There's a lesson in yesterday's events that Democrats need to learn, and quickly: The Republicans are confident -- very confident -- about the politics of national security. Confident enough to try and sell a war based on bogus intelligence. Confident enough to, in the wake of the intelligence's evident wrongness, simply revise history and say it was about something else. Confident enough to try and make the war a winning issue years after it's launch, even though it's unpopular.

Democrats need to be prepared to fight this battle. They need to figure out what they think about Iraq and then they need to put in whatever time is necessary to craft a compelling message out of that policy. And they need to do it before they get ambushed by congressional Republicans, and before something or other forces them to talk about the war.

--Matthew Yglesias

 

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